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Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: Expert Top Gun/Airline Pilots say Flt77 maneuvers imposs

Postby Scepcop » 11 Feb 2012, 02:14

caniswalensis wrote:
Scepcop wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Skeptics are not thinkers. They are disinfo people that try to keep us within the matrix.


Hi Skepcop,

I have a couple side questions if you dont mind.

Are you tlking about skeptics or pseudo-skeptics here?

Also, Can you explain what you mean by "the matrix" in this context.

Thanks.


I'm talking about pseudoskeptics like Randi, Shermer, etc.

The matrix is the reality that our media and government program us into seeing and believing. I don't need to explain that. It's simply our "programmed world". The most well traveled people I met all say that the US media lies and is BS. No well traveled person agrees with the US media, unless they are employed by them of course. For example, everyone I know who worked in Saudi Arabia said it's more peaceful than Los Angeles, and that they never saw anything happen. It is not a place with terrorists and danger around every corner, like the US media depicts.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Expert Top Gun/Airline Pilots say Flt77 maneuvers imposs

Postby ProfWag » 11 Feb 2012, 02:36

I feel the need to point out that I am quoted above as saying "skeptics are not thinkers..." That has been incorrectly shown as my post when, in fact, it was Scepcop's quote...
Thanks
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby Scepcop » 24 Sep 2012, 20:14

Look at these photos below and tell me if this scene looks like an area where a 757 crashed into. These are the initial photos immediately after the crash. Forget those photos of small debris on the floor, which an amateur could have photoshopped, that conspiracy debunkers like to point to as proof. These photos that capture the scene immediately after the crash are a lot more indicative and speak LOUDER than anything else.


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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby NinjaPuppy » 24 Sep 2012, 20:24

Scepcop wrote:Look at these photos below and tell me if this scene looks like an area where a 757 crashed into. These are the initial photos immediately after the crash. Forget those photos of small debris on the floor, which an amateur could have photoshopped, that conspiracy debunkers like to point to as proof. These photos that capture the scene immediately after the crash are a lot more indicative and speak LOUDER than anything else.


Do you know if these photos are taken from the front, the back or the sides? I find it odd that there is so little emergency response personnel.
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby ProfWag » 24 Sep 2012, 20:59

Scepcop wrote:Look at these photos below and tell me if this scene looks like an area where a 757 crashed into. These are the initial photos immediately after the crash. Forget those photos of small debris on the floor, which an amateur could have photoshopped, that conspiracy debunkers like to point to as proof. These photos that capture the scene immediately after the crash are a lot more indicative and speak LOUDER than anything else.

Let me ask you Sceopcop, how do you know what a 757 that crashed into the Pentagon would look like? Have you ever seen it before? You haven't? Oh, then how do you know? And second, yes, in my opinion, it does look like a plane could very well have crashed there.
However, getting back to your point, should I consider my friends who were there on the scene who saw bodies, body parts, and plane parts liars?
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby SydneyPSIder » 24 Sep 2012, 22:47

Scepcop is right, pseudosceptics are wrong...
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby SydneyPSIder » 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

ProfWag wrote:
Scepcop wrote:Look at these photos below and tell me if this scene looks like an area where a 757 crashed into. These are the initial photos immediately after the crash. Forget those photos of small debris on the floor, which an amateur could have photoshopped, that conspiracy debunkers like to point to as proof. These photos that capture the scene immediately after the crash are a lot more indicative and speak LOUDER than anything else.

Let me ask you Sceopcop, how do you know what a 757 that crashed into the Pentagon would look like? Have you ever seen it before? You haven't? Oh, then how do you know? And second, yes, in my opinion, it does look like a plane could very well have crashed there.
However, getting back to your point, should I consider my friends who were there on the scene who saw bodies, body parts, and plane parts liars?

There were a few people in the Pentagon itself who were killed by the incoming projectile/cruise missile/drone. These were auditors who were placed there tasked with investigating the unaccounted $1 trillion overspend by the Pentagon. (Interesting also as an aside that the US govt can just keep printing money to pay its debts, partly propped up by its petrocurrency status. Somebody is up to something.) That would explain a small number of body parts easily. The plane itself and its occupants was held in the official account to be 'vaporised', really scarcely anything left, to explain the almost complete lack of debris and body parts. No seats, luggage, bodies, engines, parts, nothing.

The supposed 'plane parts', what tiny amount of parts there are, don't match any part of a 757, and the supposed AA livery does not match any part of their fleet either. It's possible a handful of parts were scavenged and thrown in there from some source, or the missile was painted up in AA livery just to try to create an impression as a blur. There was a single, small jet engine rotor found which does not match the engines of a 757 -- neither Pratt & Whitney nor Rolls Royce plane engines -- it was of course most likely to be the engine of the projectile/cruise missile/drone.

Noses of planes are hollow and surrounded by a lightweight skin of aluminium -- on impact, especially with a building, they crush and crumple straight away. Somehow something managed to drill right through to the 5th ring and leave a hole in the wall.

So your putative eyewitness friends are not necessarily 'liars', they just witnessed the bodies of a few occupants of the Pentagon, and a handful of strange parts matching no plane.

757 plane engines weigh several tonnes each, and would have punched two holes through the Pentagon walls on each side of the actual hole that was made. The claim was that the 'wings must have folded back then' and these engines with their massive forward momentum just flipped in and followed the body of the plane in and were then completely vaporised, several tonnes of metal and jet engine. That's not how inertia and momentum work in physics, such heavy objects travelling at a nominal 4-500 mph could not just 'flip in'. Further, there are shots of pieces of paper sitting on a desk right next to the new hole in the building, suggesting there was no high heat of vaporisation.

Witnesses noted a jet airliner pulling up and going over the Pentagon at the time of the crash, and in the wrong direction to hit the wall of the Pentagon where the damage occurred, and flying into the distance. We assume the plane was flown to safety to save money for the perpetrators. Video footage that was confiscated from surrounding businesses by the FBI has NEVER been released, surely some footage being released would help the public assuage its often expressed doubts. Very suspicious. Numerous eyewitnesses swear that they saw the plane passing to the north of a service station, not the south side as the official account would require for the impact.

Far easier to lob a guided missile in at low height targeting the area where some unwelcome auditors were working with the only paper records of a Pentagon overspend, than to steer a plane from a great height in a 270 deg turn coming in low without hitting the ground or going over the top of the Pentagon -- with pilots who could not take off or land even a small single-engined Cessna, and were refused hire of a such a plane even with some basic training by a suspicious aero club some weeks earlier. Talk about setting up a cover story for some patsies -- apparently fervent Muslim patsies who drink, carouse and lapdance the night before their holy 'suicide mission'.
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby ProfWag » 26 Sep 2012, 02:21

SydneyPSIder wrote:There were a few people in the Pentagon itself who were killed by the incoming projectile/cruise missile/drone. These were auditors who were placed there tasked with investigating the unaccounted $1 trillion overspend by the Pentagon. (

Wow, talk about insensitive. "a few people in the Pentagon itself..."?
Try 125 were killed including 50 military personnel with ranks all the way up to O-8.
SydneyPSider, I beg of you, please get your facts straight before posting outlandish claims.
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby SydneyPSIder » 02 Oct 2012, 09:01

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:There were a few people in the Pentagon itself who were killed by the incoming projectile/cruise missile/drone. These were auditors who were placed there tasked with investigating the unaccounted $1 trillion overspend by the Pentagon. (

Wow, talk about insensitive. "a few people in the Pentagon itself..."?
Try 125 were killed including 50 military personnel with ranks all the way up to O-8.
SydneyPSider, I beg of you, please get your facts straight before posting outlandish claims.

I've since read it's something like $2.5 trillion.

Hey, ostrich boy, If you want insensitive, you need to talk to Dick Cheney about that. The Transport Secretary testified on video that Cheney refused to call an intercept as something or other came in from 50 miles out and did an impossible turn and dodged the white house, etc etc. You can't even see down from these jets to see what you're hitting, the nose of the plane is 15 ft above ground with the undercarriage up, and yet the hole was made in the ground floor of the Pentagon -- the jet engines would have been scraping tracts through the lawn, which as we know was still perfect. 60 or so pieces of confiscated footage from businesses in the area have never been released by the FBI. The FBI showed up at the businesses within 2-3 minutes of the accident while mayhem was still ensuing with the sole task of confiscating footage, even while carnage reigned and no-one knew the extent of the damage or what was going to happen next -- at least ostensibly. Any sensible person knows the jet did a fly-over while an F-16 or cruise missile or whatever hit the actual building. Or was it mainly planted explosives coming outwards that did the damage? Cheney was no friend of the CIA or its staff either, seeing it as populated with Democrats from the Clinton govt.
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby ProfWag » 02 Oct 2012, 20:52

Could you remind us again Syd where the original plane with the 59 people on board are? Oh yea, and when you give us that location, I'd like to see some evidence of that please. Thanks.
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby SydneyPSIder » 02 Oct 2012, 22:04

ProfWag wrote:Could you remind us again Syd where the original plane with the 59 people on board are? Oh yea, and when you give us that location, I'd like to see some evidence of that please. Thanks.

I believe it was still flying afterwards -- by tailplane number. Transfers of passengers took place at Cleveland Hopkins airport in Ohio. Or do we know there were 59 real people on a real flight at all?
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby Misha » 02 Oct 2012, 23:25

SidneyPSIder wrote:
"Cheney was no friend of the CIA or its staff either, seeing it as populated with Democrats from the Clinton govt."


As an anecdote to SydneyPSIder's comment I thought you folks might find this interesting. This comes from Valerie Plame's book - "Fair Game," pages 211 through 213. This is transcribed verbatim:

I had been following the profound changes at the CIA while I was on temporary leave. Tenet had left as DCI in June 2004 on a decidedly bittersweet note. According to MSNBC, "The White House strongly denied that Tenet had been forced out, saying his decision came as a surprise to Bush. Tenet told CIA personnel afterward that his resignation 'had only one basis in fact: "the well being of my wonderful family, nothing more and nothing less.'" We all knew there was more to it than those bland public statements, but CIA employees were caught by surprise when DDO Jim Pavitt resigned just one day after Tenet. He also cited the popular reason of "wanting to spend more time with my family." Both men were crucial to the Agency's mission, especially in wartime, and their departures heightened everyone's anxiety. In a move that had been rumored since Tenet's departure, the president had named Porter Goss as DCI in September. Goss, a CIA Operations Officer through most of the 1960s, then a congressman from Florida who became head of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, arrived at Headquarters with the clear intention to houseclean, and from the beginning he was seen more as a crusader and occupier than former colleague. He brought with him several loyal Hill staffers, known for their abrasive management style, and immediately set to work attempting to bring the CIA---with special emphasis on the often wild and willful operations directorate---to heel, per White House orders. White House officials had suspected that CIA officials had leaked information prior to the election about the intelligence surrounding the war in Iraq that put the Agency in a better light. Thus, Goss's orders from the administration were probably along the lines of "get control of it."

Although there was an overwhelming sentiment within Headquarters that long-needed reforms about how intelligence was shared, packaged, and used were critical to rebuilding the tarnished prestige of the Agency, Goss's heavy-handedness was bitterly resented. He was criticized for not interacting with senior Agency managers; for spending little time with the heads of foreign intelligence services (all of whom the CIA relied on for cooperation in counterterrorism and counterproliferation matters); for not being sufficiently engaged in day-to-day activities; and for being unable to master some of the details of operations. In a March 2005 interview, Goss said "he was a little amazed" at his workload. Employees' worst fears about the creeping politicization of the CIA were realized when shortly after the November presidential election, Goss e-mailed a memo to all CIA workers that said in part, "We support the Administration, and its policies, in our work as agency employees...We do not identify with, support or champion opposition to the Administration or policies. We provide the intelligence as we see it---and let the facts alone speak to the policy-maker." Although a CIA spokesman explained the memo as a statement of the Agency's nonpartisan nature, it appeared to be just the opposite. It had a kind of creepy Orwellian Ministry of Truth ring to it---further dismaying CIA staffers who believed the Agency was rapidly losing credibility and power as partisan politics began to degrade its work product

Strangely, this disturbing e-mail came out only hours after the tough and respected DDO, Steve Kappes, resigned in a fury after Steve's Deputy, a highly valued officer named Mike Sulick, criticized Goss's powerful Chief of Staff, Pat Murray. According to Tyler Drumheller, in his book "On the Brink", the relationship between Goss's office and the office of the DDO was disintegrating over a variety of issues and came to a head when Murray sent Sulick a "truly obnoxious email" that "accused Sulick and Kappes, two of the most experienced, respected men in the building, of being fools and lacking integrity." Murray then ordered Kappes to fire Sulick, but he refused. Over the weekend, Kappes and Sulick came to a decision that's almost never made in Washington. They both resigned on principle. This shock was magnified over the coming weeks and months as dozens of senior Agency officers left, no longer able to abide working for an organization that had strayed so far from its mission. According to the Washington Post, by January 2005, over twenty senior CIA officials had retired or resigned since Goss became DCI. At least a thousand years of hard-earned operational experience walked out the door when our country's national security needs were greatest. It was devastating.


And let's also examine Tenet. Many in the CIA were apoplectic to see Tenet sitting behind Colin Powell during The February 5, 2003 UN speech. Tenet too politicized the CIA. This is completely against their charter.
Last edited by Misha on 03 Oct 2012, 03:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby ProfWag » 03 Oct 2012, 02:19

SydneyPSIder wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Could you remind us again Syd where the original plane with the 59 people on board are? Oh yea, and when you give us that location, I'd like to see some evidence of that please. Thanks.

I believe it was still flying afterwards -- by tailplane number. Transfers of passengers took place at Cleveland Hopkins airport in Ohio. Or do we know there were 59 real people on a real flight at all?

Look Syd, you know damn good and well what I'm asking for. "I believe it was still..." Why do you believe that? What evidence have you seen that led you to believe that? Have you been to the Pentagon to witness for yourself if that would be even possible for a plane to just fly over?
"Transfers of passengers took place at Cleveland Hopkins..." Why do you believe that? What evidence did you study that has left the impression on you that 64 people flew to Cleveland?
"Or do we know there were 59 real people on a real flight..." What evidence have you studied that has led you to believe that 64 people didn't exist? (64 if I count the hijackers because if the plane didn't get hijacked, then they were all friends.) Are you saying that the thousands of people who have publicly talked about knowing the 64 people (friends, family, neighbors, co-workers, etc.) were all in on the conspiracy as well if you're saying they never existed.
I'm having a hard time believing anything you say if all you're saying is coming from your imagination. How can any reader believe you if you don't reveal your sources?
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby SydneyPSIder » 03 Oct 2012, 04:19

When you rule out the impossible (757 hitting the Pentagon), only the improbable is left. Why should I be privy to the machinations of the govt and military on that day? There are plenty of accounts and theories out there of what happened to Flight 77, you should go and look them up. There were a strangely high number of Boeing engineers and other professionals from the military-industrial complex listed on that flight, plus the odious Olson character. One account suggests 75% of passengers on ALL flights were Pentagon-related. There are also many accounts of why the impact was suspicious, including the way the 'rescue' was handled and cleaned up -- including playing water on what was supposed to be a jet fuel fire, denial of access of medical rescue helicopters, failure to call in nearby military fire-fighting units, failure to deal with the fire properly to maximise survivor rescue, failure by the Pentagon to protect Washington DC airspace at all while knowing 'something' was approaching after the WTC had been hit -- including ongoing stand-down orders, etc etc. Then there is the lack of wreckage, no luggage or plane passenger bodies, confiscated footage, a 16ft hole from a 45ft tailplane, and 2 6-ton engines not making any impact. These are all parts of the real, observable 'evidence' that we CAN access. Whether the passengers were transferred off the flight or just killed I don't know -- this information is hardly published in the public domain by the perpetrators, now is it? It amazes me that you insist on direct evidence and proof and omniscience about something that is meant to be kept secret at all costs -- all that can be provided are reasonable theories to explain the anomalies.

Here's one account: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/socio ... 11_20a.htm
Some contributors to that author from civilian and military aeronautical backgrounds suggest that it was not a 757, and most likely a Tomahawk cruise missile with a hardened bunker-busting warhead to penetrate multiple ring walls. Other possibilities include a small Learjet type aircraft.
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Re: Expert Pilots say Flight 77 maneuvers impossible on 9/11

Postby Arouet » 03 Oct 2012, 07:24

SydneyPSIder wrote:When you rule out the impossible (757 hitting the Pentagon), only the improbable is left.


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