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Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass On!

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: They can barely control one country, how the world?

Postby Arouet » 08 Jan 2011, 21:31

NinjaPuppy wrote:It is odd on a discussion forum to merely ask questions and make no attempt to answer them. It's also frustrating to actually look into a topic, then have the OP (mostly Scepcop) abandon the thread. It's actually a discussion killer, not a discussion promoter.

No argument there. I hear ya baby!
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Re: They can barely control one country, how the world?

Postby Edx » 09 Jan 2011, 11:49

NinjaPuppy wrote:
Edx wrote:Because Winston, who runs this website, believes in anything and everything, so long as it isn't a mainstream opinion. Presumably be doesn't believe Christianity because too many people believe that and isn't fringe enough for him.

Aww come on Edx, Winston doesn't believe in anything and everything that he brings to this forum. He does question anything and everything and he does find some really unusual topic material for discussion but I doubt he 'believes' it all.


Can you show me any example of a fringe claim that Winston doesn't believe? :)

He does question anything and everything


Since I doubt you can answer the question the above is not true. He doesn't question anything if its coming from a fringe source. Its how he can be both against Christianity yet endorse Intelligent Design and the Discovery Institute at the same time. Christianity is too mainstream yet Creationism is fringe. What's hilarious is he refuses to acknowledge the fact that the Discovery Institute promotes Creationism and is committed to Christian apologetics. Its a great example of cognitive dissonance.

This is a discussion forum. Scepcop posts various YouTube videos and topics. We discuss. It's pretty simple.


But Winston doesn't discuss anything, he just keep repeating the same debunked stuff he always has. If he questions everything, why doesn't he care about correcting any of his errors and misconceptions? At most he will reply maybe once or twice if you're really lucky.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby NinjaPuppy » 09 Jan 2011, 18:59

You points are valid, however:

Can you show me any example of a fringe claim that Winston doesn't believe?

I think this is where I'm supposed to say, "You can't prove a negative" or some such comment. I also will need both yours and his definition of the word "believe" as well as I will need to ask Winston if he believes the whole banana or just some of the material.

Besides, my statement was that Winston "questions everything" vs. your statement that he "believes everything". Apples and oranges. I can see many questions posted by Winston about various subject material but I can't see from what I read that he believes everything. "Everything" being the key word here. I guess I just hate generalizations as they tend to cast aspersions.

Please remember that this forum was created for the sole purpose of open discussion of this sort of topic material. Skeptics are welcome to interject logic and reason into the discussions.

I guess it's hard to switch gears and come from forums where debunking and scoffing is encouraged (to prove your intelligence) to a forum where people might actually want to discuss the night they got beamed up by aliens or had Bigfoot over for a vegan dinner.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby ProfWag » 09 Jan 2011, 20:13

If I may interject here for a second. Winston has repeatedly asked us to show where Shermer or Randi (or me) questioned the "establishment." How about him (or anyone for that matter) show us where Winston has NOT questioned the establishment and actually supported an "official" story. (Whatever "establishment" and "official" happen to mean to you or him.)
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby Edx » 10 Jan 2011, 01:30

NinjaPuppy wrote:You points are valid, however:

Can you show me any example of a fringe claim that Winston doesn't believe?

I think this is where I'm supposed to say, "You can't prove a negative" or some such comment. I also will need both yours and his definition of the word "believe" as well as I will need to ask Winston if he believes the whole banana or just some of the material.


Its not asking to prove a negative at all. Is it really that hard to find something Winston doesn't believe? Doesn't that prove my point? I can point to plenty of things i don't believe in, ghosts, psychics, Creationism, gods, homeopathy etc etc.

My theory is that Winston is against all mainstream views by default and he supports ANY fringe theory uncritically.

To falsify that simply show me an occasion where he has supported the mainstream view over a fringe view. Its difficult isn't it?


Besides, my statement was that Winston "questions everything" vs. your statement that he "believes everything".


To be more specific, he... uncritically accepts something simply because its fringe and especially if its arguing some kind of conspiracy in mainstream science.

Apples and oranges. I can see many questions posted by Winston about various subject material but I can't see from what I read that he believes everything. "Everything" being the key word here. I guess I just hate generalizations as they tend to cast aspersions.


Does he not defend Intelligent Design? Does he not defend the Discovery Institute? Does he not defend homeopathy? Does he not defend David Icke? Does he not keep repeating claims he has already been told are lies and misrepresentations with no attempt to correct any of his errors or debate any of them? Yes.

Please remember that this forum was created for the sole purpose of open discussion of this sort of topic material. Skeptics are welcome to interject logic and reason into the discussions.


Sure, but this still doesn't explain why Winston refuses to question any of his beliefs. Look at the stuff he posts about 911, he still keep repeating strawman about melting steel and how the fires weren't hot enough so therefore it couldn't have caused critical failure. Why does he refuse to correct his misunderstandings? Because then he would have to acknowledge his FRINGE sources have lied to him. That's why he runs away from every thread he starts.

I guess it's hard to switch gears and come from forums where debunking and scoffing is encouraged (to prove your intelligence) to a forum where people might actually want to discuss the night they got beamed up by aliens or had Bigfoot over for a vegan dinner.


They can discuss it but that doesn't mean they are being skeptical. Winston posts stuff that is demonstrably false and refuses to listen to any criticisms. How is what Winston does in any way skeptical?
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby NinjaPuppy » 10 Jan 2011, 04:59

I'll get back to you on all this.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby NinjaPuppy » 10 Jan 2011, 05:42

I had to open another screen to reply to all of your points as your reply was a bit thick.

Its not asking to prove a negative at all. Is it really that hard to find something Winston doesn't believe? Doesn't that prove my point? I can point to plenty of things i don't believe in, ghosts, psychics, Creationism, gods, homeopathy etc etc.

I never said it was hard, I simply don't care to go looking for it. I can point to many things that I don't believe in but then I am me and I don't have to review a few thousand posts to find the best example either.

My theory is that Winston is against all mainstream views by default and he supports ANY fringe theory uncritically.

"All" and "ANY" are up for discussion. I have no problem with "almost all" and "MOST". It's just semantics but it makes a difference.

To falsify that simply show me an occasion where he has supported the mainstream view over a fringe view. Its difficult isn't it?

I don't have a clue as I can't recall anything off the top of my head and as I said, I don't care to spend my day looking. As is said, "it's not my job" :D but it's probably better said that I have no reason to speak for Winston as to his opinions as they are just that, his opinions. They are, or are not, necessarily my own so called beliefs as they are called many times.

They can discuss it but that doesn't mean they are being skeptical.

I don't think that any believer on this board ever intended to be all that "skeptical" about any of the subject matter. That's YOUR job. You want to be a skeptic, have a ball. Some of us even listen to what y'all have to say.

Winston posts stuff that is demonstrably false and refuses to listen to any criticisms.

What is that new bunch of letters I learned today? LDO? Well, LDO! Of course Winston posts stuff that is demonstrably false and refuses to listen to any criticism. You can do whatever you want when you're Admin of your own forum. Now his perk, sure as shootin' out does your perk. Plus, Winston has minions. BTW, I guess that (the minions) would be me. :)
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby Edx » 10 Jan 2011, 07:05

NinjaPuppy wrote:
My theory is that Winston is against all mainstream views by default and he supports ANY fringe theory uncritically.

"All" and "ANY" are up for discussion. I have no problem with "almost all" and "MOST". It's just semantics but it makes a difference.


I will gladly change my mind, butl so far I haven't seen one mainstream view he agrees with so long as their is an opposing fringe view that says the opposite.

To falsify that simply show me an occasion where he has supported the mainstream view over a fringe view. Its difficult isn't it?

I don't have a clue as I can't recall anything off the top of my head and as I said, I don't care to spend my day looking. As is said, "it's not my job" :D but it's probably better said that I have no reason to speak for Winston as to his opinions as they are just that, his opinions. They are, or are not, necessarily my own so called beliefs as they are called many times.


Yet you started this conversation by saying .. "Winston doesn't believe in anything and everything that he brings to this forum. He does question anything and everything". My contention is none of that is true, so I'm asking you what reason you have for thinking that about him.

They can discuss it but that doesn't mean they are being skeptical.

I don't think that any believer on this board ever intended to be all that "skeptical" about any of the subject matter. That's YOUR job. You want to be a skeptic, have a ball. Some of us even listen to what y'all have to say.


I don't know what your motives on this forum are, but Winston claims he is a "real" skeptic so presumably yes this forum is about what he calls true scepticism> He is always talking about the truth and calling things lies. Presumably then he also cares about what are lies and what is the truth and how best to know the difference which is what skepticism is. If he is going to make a website that claims to be against "PseudoSkepticism" then it seems rather strange to have a problem with me being skeptical of his claims and pointing out how uncritical he seems to be of the information he gets.


Winston posts stuff that is demonstrably false and refuses to listen to any criticisms.

What is that new bunch of letters I learned today? LDO? Well, LDO! Of course Winston posts stuff that is demonstrably false and refuses to listen to any criticism. You can do whatever you want when you're Admin of your own forum. Now his perk, sure as shootin' out does your perk. Plus, Winston has minions. BTW, I guess that (the minions) would be me. :)


Eh?

I never said he wasn't allowed to post this way on the forum, of course he can he can say whatever he likes. But I can also critcise what he writes, if he chooses to allow it. But he isn't a skeptic just because he says he is.

I also don't know what you mean in the bolded part, does Winston know you think that about him? How can Winston "question anything and everything" and also "posts stuff that is demonstrably false and refuses to listen to any criticism"? These two are mutually exclusive.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby NinjaPuppy » 10 Jan 2011, 08:14

I never said he wasn't allowed to post this way on the forum, of course he can he can say whatever he likes. But I can also critcise what he writes, if he chooses to allow it. But he isn't a skeptic just because he says he is.

I also don't know what you mean in the bolded part, does Winston know you think that about him? How can Winston "question anything and everything" and also "posts stuff that is demonstrably false and refuses to listen to any criticism"? These two are mutually exclusive.

First of all, the comment that YOU bolded is a two part statement. Yes, Winston posts stuff that is demonstrably false. I was referring to various YouTube satires and the occasional odd 'off the wall' commentary. I believe he has even put up the occasional "The Onion" article if my memory serves me correctly. The second part, "He refuses to listen to any criticism" is also accurate when it comes to Pseudoskeptics and arm chair debunkers.

You certainly can criticise what he or anyone else writes but don't expect a whole lot of attention about those posts if they're textbook pseudoskeptic responses.

Now here is something I can answer:

I don't know what your motives on this forum are, but Winston claims he is a "real" skeptic so presumably yes this forum is about what he calls true scepticism

I was not aware that one should have a motive for being part of a forum. Who knew? Mia culpa. I have no "motive" actually. I was given a link to this forum via another skeptic based forum and I spent many hours reading the content here and then read Winston's Treatise material. If I have to give a definition of my 'side' on all of this it would be a skeptical believer. Certainly NOT a skeptic as portrayed on forums such as JREF but skeptical of claims and information that doesn't seem to make sense to me. "ME" being the key word here. Not math or science, just little ol' me. My opinions are mine, heck, they're opinions. They have no value to anyone but me. I question what interests me. Not what interests anyone else. I don't always have the time to get into many of the convos here and it doesn't mean that I'm not totally interested in what is being said, I'm just busy at that moment and of course it's difficult to go back and jump into a convo that's progressed beyond where I want to start.

Winston made me a moderator. My pseudo-job is simple. No cursing, no name calling and whack the spammers. I am an accomplished expert on both cursing and name calling. I can do both in about 10 languages. It is not my job to understand content or decide what is or isn't factual. Like everyone else here I have the option to call BS if and when I see it but it sure ain't my job. Being a moderator is easy, being someone who would like to discuss the paranormal, a fringe topic or a conspiracy theory isn't. Some members here make it difficult. Some run off new people with alternate views or who would like to discuss what you would call lies and woo.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby Edx » 10 Jan 2011, 09:03

NinjaPuppy wrote:
I also don't know what you mean in the bolded part, does Winston know you think that about him? How can Winston "question anything and everything" and also "posts stuff that is demonstrably false and refuses to listen to any criticism"? These two are mutually exclusive.

First of all, the comment that YOU bolded is a two part statement. Yes, Winston posts stuff that is demonstrably false. I was referring to various YouTube satires and the occasional odd 'off the wall' commentary. I believe he has even put up the occasional "The Onion" article if my memory serves me correctly. The second part, "He refuses to listen to any criticism" is also accurate when it comes to Pseudoskeptics and arm chair debunkers.


Other people are irrelevant and off topic. He claims he is not a "pseudoskeptic" so claims he holds himself to a higher standard than which he believes others have so I am justified in pointing out how hypocritical he is in doing everything he perceives his "pseudoskeptics" do.

But I'm still confused as to what you meant and i don't think I'm going to get it, so I'm just going to go back to your original stance... saying that Winston...

"doesn't believe in anything and everything that he brings to this forum. He does question anything and everything".

What reason do you have to say that? Since I have known him both here, youtube and the Zeitgeist Movement I have seen the complete opposite.



You certainly can criticise what he or anyone else writes but don't expect a whole lot of attention about those posts if they're textbook pseudoskeptic responses.


So is that why you're saying I'm not getting a response?

This is honestly very interesting. I am prompted to ask then what defines a "pseudoskeptic" response? And please don't just refer me to his articles, I want to know which post of mine is so riddled with fallacies that you can use as an example. Pseudoskeptic, as I understand it, means someone who isn't really a skeptic but claims to be one, which I personally think describes Winston perfectly rather ironically. In fact he is more or less the poster child of a pseudoskeptic as far as I'm concerned.

If you're saying Im not getting a response because my responses are factually incorrect, illogical, irrational and/or unreasonable thats a whole other thing. Please explain.



I don't know what your motives on this forum are, but Winston claims he is a "real" skeptic so presumably yes this forum is about what he calls true scepticism


I was not aware that one should have a motive for being part of a forum.


What I mean is maybe your beliefs don't reflect Winstons.


Who knew? Mia culpa. I have no "motive" actually. I was given a link to this forum via another skeptic based forum and I spent many hours reading the content here and then read Winston's Treatise material. If I have to give a definition of my 'side' on all of this it would be a skeptical believer. Certainly NOT a skeptic as portrayed on forums such as JREF but skeptical of claims and information that doesn't seem to make sense to me. "ME" being the key word here. Not math or science, just little ol' me. My opinions are mine, heck, they're opinions. They have no value to anyone but me. I question what interests me. Not what interests anyone else. I don't always have the time to get into many of the convos here and it doesn't mean that I'm not totally interested in what is being said, I'm just busy at that moment and of course it's difficult to go back and jump into a convo that's progressed beyond where I want to start.


While this is in itself a totally different discussion, this doesn't sound like skepticism to me.

Winston made me a moderator. My pseudo-job is simple. No cursing, no name calling and whack the spammers. I am an accomplished expert on both cursing and name calling. I can do both in about 10 languages. It is not my job to understand content or decide what is or isn't factual. Like everyone else here I have the option to call BS if and when I see it but it sure ain't my job. Being a moderator is easy, being someone who would like to discuss the paranormal, a fringe topic or a conspiracy theory isn't. Some members here make it difficult. Some run off new people with alternate views or who would like to discuss what you would call lies and woo.


Thanks for clarifying.

But I can still complain about Winstons behaviour, if you disagree with my characterisation of Winston then I would love to know why I am wrong. If it is my posts that are claimed to be factually incorrect or something then again I would like to know about it.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby Edx » 11 Jan 2011, 08:11

Come now, don't leave me guessing.

You suggested I am not getting a reply because my replies are factually incorrect or commit some other fallacy.

Do you have an example?

You certainly can criticise what he or anyone else writes but don't expect a whole lot of attention about those posts if they're textbook pseudoskeptic responses.


So is that why you're saying I'm not getting a response?

This is honestly very interesting. I am prompted to ask then what defines a "pseudoskeptic" response? And please don't just refer me to his articles, I want to know which post of mine is so riddled with fallacies that you can use as an example. Pseudoskeptic, as I understand it, means someone who isn't really a skeptic but claims to be one, which I personally think describes Winston perfectly rather ironically. In fact he is more or less the poster child of a pseudoskeptic as far as I'm concerned.

If you're saying Im not getting a response because my responses are factually incorrect, illogical, irrational and/or unreasonable thats a whole other thing. Please explain.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby NinjaPuppy » 11 Jan 2011, 23:41

Edx wrote:Come now, don't leave me guessing.

So is that why you're saying I'm not getting a response?

This is honestly very interesting. I am prompted to ask then what defines a "pseudoskeptic" response? And please don't just refer me to his articles, I want to know which post of mine is so riddled with fallacies that you can use as an example. Pseudoskeptic, as I understand it, means someone who isn't really a skeptic but claims to be one, which I personally think describes Winston perfectly rather ironically. In fact he is more or less the poster child of a pseudoskeptic as far as I'm concerned.

If you're saying Im not getting a response because my responses are factually incorrect, illogical, irrational and/or unreasonable thats a whole other thing. Please explain.


From Winston's Treatise:
But rather than inquiring, or asking questions to try to understand something, they seek to debunk, discredit and ridicule anything that doesn't fit into their belief system. And rather than suspending judgment, they make accusations of fraud and delusion of all paranormal claimants. They are PROSECUTORS, not investigators. Hence, we call them pseudoskeptics (a term coined by the late Marcello Truzzi) for their actions and behaviors are the complete antithesis of what skepticism truly means.

I searched 124 posts made by you (Edx) since your first post on July 2, 2010. You came in with what I will call a hard hitting response. You then created the topic: "Why no CREATIONISM forum?" on July 3, 2010. Winston replied: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1289&start=30#p15507
Scepcop wrote:Strange question.

You assume that I promote everything out there. That's not true. That is YOUR FALLACY and straw man, not mine.

If you want to discuss Creationism, there is a religion board here. Why not do it there? We don't need to have too many boards.

Why don't I promote Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and the Illuminati religion, and Freemasonic Occult Rituals too?

I can't cover everything. Get real. But there are general categories here for those things. So feel free to post about them.

Do you really think there should be a board just for Creationism?

FYI, I do believe in God, but a Pantheistic or Monism type of God. So even if I believe in Creationism, it doesn't mean the Bible thumper's version of it, or the literal interpretation of Genesis.

But please, stop pinning your false labels onto me.

A lot of paranormal ideas, even wacko ones, might have some degree of truth in them. Reality is far stranger than fiction, and the rabbit hole goes deeper than you think. You guys are trying to limit and suppress reality. That's your problem. Our minds can only understand a very tiny microcosm of what's out there anyway. You guys fail to realize and acknowledge all that.


That's all I got as I have too much work today to be spending time on something that has been responded to.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby Edx » 12 Jan 2011, 00:21

NinjaPuppy wrote:
From Winston's Treatise:

But rather than inquiring, or asking questions to try to understand something, they seek to debunk, discredit and ridicule anything that doesn't fit into their belief system. And rather than suspending judgment, they make accusations of fraud and delusion of all paranormal claimants. They are PROSECUTORS, not investigators. Hence, we call them pseudoskeptics (a term coined by the late Marcello Truzzi) for their actions and behaviors are the complete antithesis of what skepticism truly means.



How does this relate to my posts?

How do I correct something Winston said without him claiming I'm "debunking" therefore he can ignore it?

Is this why Winston never corrects any errors? Because anyone saying he is wrong automatically is ignored?



Scepcop wrote:Strange question.

You assume that I promote everything out there. That's not true. That is YOUR FALLACY and straw man, not mine.

If you want to discuss Creationism, there is a religion board here. Why not do it there? We don't need to have too many boards.

Why don't I promote Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and the Illuminati religion, and Freemasonic Occult Rituals too?

I can't cover everything. Get real. But there are general categories here for those things. So feel free to post about them.

Do you really think there should be a board just for Creationism?

FYI, I do believe in God, but a Pantheistic or Monism type of God. So even if I believe in Creationism, it doesn't mean the Bible thumper's version of it, or the literal interpretation of Genesis.

But please, stop pinning your false labels onto me.

A lot of paranormal ideas, even wacko ones, might have some degree of truth in them. Reality is far stranger than fiction, and the rabbit hole goes deeper than you think. You guys are trying to limit and suppress reality. That's your problem. Our minds can only understand a very tiny microcosm of what's out there anyway. You guys fail to realize and acknowledge all that.


That's all I got as I have too much work today to be spending time on something that has been responded to.


That was a completely different discussion and yes Scepcop was defending Creationists, but instead of sticking around and finding out why he'd rather continue believing in Intelligent Design and that the Discovery Institute are credible scientists rather than finding out who they really are.

How is this him being skepticical?

In fact by his own "Treatise" he is being a pseudoskeptic because instead of suspending judgement on evolution and searching for possible criticisms to the film "Expelled" he automatically accepted all of it without question. Its not as if criticism of that film, Intelligent Design or the Discovery Institute is hard to find.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby Edx » 14 Jan 2011, 00:08

Seriously, no response?

I just want to know what response to mine is so riddled of fallacies that it doesn't deserve a reply from Winston.
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Re: Urgent Film! Invisible Empire NWO Defined, Watch n Pass

Postby NinjaPuppy » 14 Jan 2011, 02:42

Edx wrote:Seriously, no response?

I just want to know what response to mine is so riddled of fallacies that it doesn't deserve a reply from Winston.

It ain't "all about you", Winston hasn't been around.
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