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A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby NinjaPuppy » 23 Jul 2010, 23:56

Totally agree with you Craig. I didn't want to bring religion into the arena as it takes too many forms. The connection between religion and government is exactly why I totally gave up on my patriarchal, monotheistic religious teachings. Especially since religion tends to use a fire and brimstone attitude of instilling fear. Fear is just another way to control the 'unwashed masses' and fleece them of their money. History has shown us that there have been too many popes who have ruled kingdoms in the name of God, mixing the best of their personal two worlds for control over entire civilizations. (Hopefully 'civilizations' is the correct word here as I mean it as the same as kindoms/villages/cities and/or countries. What a political or governmental situation could not control with laws, a church would do with fear.

As for a "decorum vs. the more dramatic modes of expression", decorum is sooooo overrated. :lol: But I sure do hate anything dramatic. I prefer a no nonsense, upfront approach. Especially when I'm expected to vote for a political candidate. To quote SCEPCOP: "NOTHING exists that we don't know about, so there are no "fantastic" secrets that are being kept from us." I would actually have to agree with that statement eventhough SCEPCOP was being facetious. There really are no fantastic secrets that are being kept from us because every danged political candidate lies through their teeths during their campaign. We are continually subjected to having to choose the lesser of two evils, rather than the best person for the job. Only those who conform to the agenda of those in power can rise to the top. It's not a hidden agenda either. We all know they are a bunch of slimeballs, the next one worse than his/her predicessor to make sure that the little guy never gets a slice of that tasty pie they dangle like a carrot. Yes, every once in a while, they throw us a 'wildcard' candidate that they can control completely to look good in front of the cameras (think Reagan) so that the next slimeball looks like a bargain and we all jump on the bandwagon in their propaganda mission for whatever BS they are selling that year.
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby NinjaPuppy » 23 Jul 2010, 23:59

I guess I should now go sit on my front porch and wait for the black sedans to line up in front of my house. I'd hate to think that I cost the American taxpayers money for them to 'find me'. :lol:
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby Scepcop » 29 Jul 2010, 12:11

You all should see this film "Invisible Empire - NWO Defined". It explains the shadow government and features Mark Dice and Edward Griffin.


“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby Scepcop » 29 Jul 2010, 12:18

ProfWag wrote:
Scepcop wrote:
But of course, according to people like ProfWag, NOTHING exists that we don't know about, so there are no "fantastic" secrets that are being kept from us. We know it all, or at least he does.

Right ProfWag?

Scepcop, kindly look back 3 posts ago, read what I said, and kindly retract your statement.
Thanks.
ProfWag


Ok I'll retract it. But answer me this then.

If you admit that there are many secrets, then how do you know what they are? Technically then, you cannot PROCLAIM what is true and what is false then, right?Technically, you cannot claim that this or that conspiracy must be false right?

If you admit that there ARE many secrets, then these secrets could be anything, from the fantastic to the mundane, right? That means you will have to live in the world of POSSIBILITIES, not proclamations.

How do you know that JFK wasn't assassinated by conspirators within the shadow government, for example? You don't really know do you? Too many pieces of the puzzle are ambiguous.

So then, why do you proclaim that JFK could only have been killed by a lone nut, when there are too many unanswered questions and clues pointing the other way, as well as a rush to judgment by the Warren Commission?

Same with 9/11. How do you really know?

How do you know an alien craft didn't crash at Roswell? How do you know for sure?

Any number of things could be a cover up and disinfo. How do you know that they don't have hologram technology to make UFO's and Virgin Mary's appear in the sky? How do you know?

If you admit that there are many secrets, then that puts question marks on EVERYTHING now! So that means you'll have to live in the world of possibilities, rather than the world of certainty.

Agreed?
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby Scepcop » 29 Jul 2010, 12:21

So true Ninjapuppy, from the time that we are born, we are always controlled by someone or a group of people, whether it's parents, schools, government, media, etc. It's always control, control. Yet we are told the opposite, that we are a free country and live in "the land of the free". It's double think and mind control. At the core, you are told one thing and done another. At the core, actions and words don't match. I hate that. It makes me sick. Lies, lies, lies.
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby Scepcop » 29 Jul 2010, 12:26

Craig Browning wrote:
Possibly. According to some insiders, the government also has secret technology that can project holograms and create UFO's in the sky. Some say the UFO's are a distraction on you while they kill you off with manufactured diseases.

And of course, there is HAARP and the secret technology there.


Please tell me you're being sarcastic here...

While there is "Classified" technology out there I really doubt the government would spend millions of dollars to create massive holograms of this sort. But I can assure you that it DOES experiment on the public when it comes to virus/biologically based warfare tactics; maybe not the general populace, but there is documentation pertaining to federal prisons as well as members of the military on whom some very cruel "unannounced" experiments have been imposed upon. There is likewise existing proof as to how "our" government/military has exploited the populations of other nations for such "trials"... this is especially true when it comes to "unwanted" types... people of color, gender associated, even religious/cultural elements that the Caucasian seats of power feel the need to suppress and keep "handled".


Maybe what I said was bogus. Or maybe not. We just don't know. There are many many secrets we just don't know.

They could be using the cell phone towers to control us, and we would never be told.

Dan Akroyd saw men in black pull up to his house once, then them and their car vanished as though it had a "cloaking device". He said he was sure it didn't drive away. If he is right, then there are technologies that we don't know about. Chilling huh? I posted the video where Akroyd talked about this in the UFO section of this forum in the thread "Dan Akroyd is nuts" or something like that.
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby ProfWag » 29 Jul 2010, 20:41

Scepcop wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
Scepcop wrote:
But of course, according to people like ProfWag, NOTHING exists that we don't know about, so there are no "fantastic" secrets that are being kept from us. We know it all, or at least he does.

Right ProfWag?

Scepcop, kindly look back 3 posts ago, read what I said, and kindly retract your statement.
Thanks.
ProfWag


Ok I'll retract it. But answer me this then.

If you admit that there are many secrets, then how do you know what they are? Technically then, you cannot PROCLAIM what is true and what is false then, right?Technically, you cannot claim that this or that conspiracy must be false right?

If you admit that there ARE many secrets, then these secrets could be anything, from the fantastic to the mundane, right? That means you will have to live in the world of POSSIBILITIES, not proclamations.

How do you know that JFK wasn't assassinated by conspirators within the shadow government, for example? You don't really know do you? Too many pieces of the puzzle are ambiguous.

So then, why do you proclaim that JFK could only have been killed by a lone nut, when there are too many unanswered questions and clues pointing the other way, as well as a rush to judgment by the Warren Commission?

Same with 9/11. How do you really know?

How do you know an alien craft didn't crash at Roswell? How do you know for sure?

Any number of things could be a cover up and disinfo. How do you know that they don't have hologram technology to make UFO's and Virgin Mary's appear in the sky? How do you know?

If you admit that there are many secrets, then that puts question marks on EVERYTHING now! So that means you'll have to live in the world of possibilities, rather than the world of certainty.

Agreed?

Scepcop, ANYTHING is possible. JFK could very well be a conspiracy as could 9/11 and Roswell. Again, ANYTHING is possible and that much I agree with. However, without living in my head, you can't understand what goes through my mind. My personality is such that would I become very uncomfortable, depressed even, if things are not as they seem. I choose not to dwell on possibilities but rather focus on the certainties. Conspiracies are simply ideas that cannot be proven and not supported by the facts. Conspiracies do much more harm than good to the world and I would rather focus on the good. That's the way I was raised and that's the way I will always be. Personally, I don't understand the joy people give themselves by believing and spreading rumors, gossip, inaccuracies, and misrepresentations, but that's just me. Your experiences in life to this point must have pointed you in that direction but it's not for me.
Take the recent TS documents released to wikileaks.org. Not very many exciting things have come out of that except that the security of my nation has been compromised a bit more. You people who push for the government to reveal secrets really do nothing but jeapardize my country's security and that, my friend, pisses me off.
Wag
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby NinjaPuppy » 04 Aug 2010, 19:25

ProfWag wrote:Scepcop, ANYTHING is possible. JFK could very well be a conspiracy as could 9/11 and Roswell. Again, ANYTHING is possible and that much I agree with. However, without living in my head, you can't understand what goes through my mind. My personality is such that would I become very uncomfortable, depressed even, if things are not as they seem. I choose not to dwell on possibilities but rather focus on the certainties. Conspiracies are simply ideas that cannot be proven and not supported by the facts. Conspiracies do much more harm than good to the world and I would rather focus on the good. That's the way I was raised and that's the way I will always be. Personally, I don't understand the joy people give themselves by believing and spreading rumors, gossip, inaccuracies, and misrepresentations, but that's just me. Your experiences in life to this point must have pointed you in that direction but it's not for me.

Take the recent TS documents released to wikileaks.org. Not very many exciting things have come out of that except that the security of my nation has been compromised a bit more. You people who push for the government to reveal secrets really do nothing but jeapardize my country's security and that, my friend, pisses me off.
Wag

I also like to focus on the good and find myself not wanting to think about things that may be fact or fiction but when I stumble across something that says that things are not as we have been told, it gets my dander up. I hate being lied to or misinformed. I understand the whole need to do this at times for National Security and all that crap but I don't have to like it. I guess it really bothers me when that whole 'classified' BS is because of some dumb ass and his reputation thing rather than some intelligence that we don't want enemies to know.
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby really? » 05 Aug 2010, 20:41

Scepcop wrote:
Craig Browning wrote:
Possibly. According to some insiders, the government also has secret technology that can project holograms and create UFO's in the sky. Some say the UFO's are a distraction on you while they kill you off with manufactured diseases.

And of course, there is HAARP and the secret technology there.


Please tell me you're being sarcastic here...

While there is "Classified" technology out there I really doubt the government would spend millions of dollars to create massive holograms of this sort. But I can assure you that it DOES experiment on the public when it comes to virus/biologically based warfare tactics; maybe not the general populace, but there is documentation pertaining to federal prisons as well as members of the military on whom some very cruel "unannounced" experiments have been imposed upon. There is likewise existing proof as to how "our" government/military has exploited the populations of other nations for such "trials"... this is especially true when it comes to "unwanted" types... people of color, gender associated, even religious/cultural elements that the Caucasian seats of power feel the need to suppress and keep "handled".


Maybe what I said was bogus. Or maybe not. We just don't know. There are many many secrets we just don't know.

They could be using the cell phone towers to control us, and we would never be told.


How would such a method work ? What would be the obvious signs that people are doing things they normally wouldn't do ?
Are you behaving any differently today then you would have ten years ago. Do you feel any difference from your normal self ? Think way way back.
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby Arouet » 08 Aug 2010, 20:37

Ugh. I'd typed up a pretty lengthy reply to this post and thought I'd pressed "submit" but doesn't look like it went through. I'll try again. I'm not that interested in conspiracy theories (I find other skeptical topics much more interesting), but read this post and while I won't comment on the substance of the accusations in it, I would like to draw attention to some pretty big logical fallacies in the argument.

Scepcop wrote:But it goes back to what I tell all those worried about the Free Masons & Illuminati... they've been in power for a very long time, have a far longer reach than you have, so why do you want to get all dramatic, paranoid and depressed over it... YOU'RE POWERLESS! "If" it is a genuine threat and you are viewed by "them" as being a "problem" you will either vanish, have an accident or be painted publicly as being a deluded fool... it's just how it's done and how it's been done (successfully, mind you) for generations if not eons.


Ok, I have some issues with how this is worded, but lets accept that the proposition is: If you are perceived as a genuine threat or as a "problem" that you will either be 1) kidnapped (and presumably killed), 2) killed in a manner made to look like an accident, or 3) be publicly painted as a deluded fool (presumably in a dishonest manner). Ok, how is this proposition defended?

So true. Our first President George Washington was a Freemason, and nearly all the Founders of the Constitution were too. The Statue of Liberty is a Masonic symbol. And the architecture around Washington DC is all Masonic as well. There are Masonic symbols even on our dollar bill. What could be more obvious? Connect the dots!


Ok, this is not quite a logical fallacy, but just wanted to point out, that if these things really were evidence of a conspiracy, what you would have are some people brilliant enough to have secretly taken over the world (or at least the US in this case) but dumb enough to leave breadcrumbs for clever investigators to follow. I mean, we're not talking about a serial killer who has some psychological desire to have the police stop him and so taunts the police with clues, and hints. So, despite the (IMO) entertaining books of Dan Brown, this is a strange argument to make.

What I don't get though, is why the conspiracy leaders that expose all this stuff haven't been silenced. How is it that Alex Jones and David Icke are allowed to spread all their stuff and get away with it? They must be allowed to live for some reason. Either they haven't done enough damage yet. Or they are spreading disinfo (unintentionally) and so serve some use to the "secret government". They definitely are passionate and believe in what they are saying themselves. I don't doubt that. So if they are disinfo agents, they are unknowingly.


Ok, here's where the fallacies start. The proposition is that people who attempt to expose this government corruption are dispatched with or otherwise nullified. However, when presented with some examples of some very high profile people with large followings who are doing just that and apparently suffering no harm, rather than consider this to be evidence AGAINST the proposition, the OP invokes Special Pleading. 1) they haven't done enough damage yet - this effectively renders the proposition unfalsifiable - any case where measures are not taken can be explained away by this. 2) they are dupes who have been fed false information and serve some secret government use. Again this renders the original proposition unfalsifiable, and is also an argument from ignorance.

The more logical approach would be to say that these cases are evidence against the original proposition.

But then why have they assassinated others, like Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones, Jimmy Hendrix, Martin Luther King Jr, etc.?


Same thing with these examples. Rather than use the Jones and icke cases to consider it less likely that these three folks were assassinated by the "establishment", the OP is confirmed and rather than ask "does this make it less likely that JH, MLK and BJ were assassinated by the establishment, the question is simply asked why those three were picked for assassination and not Jone and Icke.

ProfWag, is it your position that every mysterious death is an accident and that there are no secret assassinations by this "secret government" that are outside your knowledge? Or do you believe that nothing is true that we don't know about, and that secrets don't exist?


Some pretty bring problems with this statement. First, it is OP who is making a positive statement and should have the burden of proof. Shifting it to someone else to prove you wrong is not the way to win an argument. Secondly, how can Profwag comment on anything outside his knowledge? The third question: "Or do you believe that nothing is true that we don't know about, and that secrets don't exist." Very odd statement: of course secrets exist. We have all kept secrets and it stands to reason that so do others. I don't know what "Nothing is true that we don't know about" means. Presumably most of us recognize that we don't know everything and that there are almost an infinite number of things that could be true that we don't know about. So we're mixing in reversing the burden of proof, argument from ignorance, and appeal to emotion.

Such argument structure must be seen as manipulative, designed to build on fears as substitute for facts. These are appeals to emotion which should not, with all due respect, form part of serious debate.

Please note that I am not making any statements here about whether the original proposition is true or not. I've been focusing on the argument structure.
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby Craig Browning » 08 Aug 2010, 23:41

Arouet

Ok, I have some issues with how this is worded, but lets accept that the proposition is: If you are perceived as a genuine threat or as a "problem" that you will either be 1) kidnapped (and presumably killed), 2) killed in a manner made to look like an accident, or 3) be publicly painted as a deluded fool (presumably in a dishonest manner). Ok, how is this proposition defended?

Ok, I have to comment on this in that there IS a plethora of evidence that supports every one of these scenarios, most especially item #3 in which one is painted to be a nut-job and what you offer is “quack-science” This is one of the JREF & CSICOP organization’s favorite dodges but you find it echoed in how certain government agencies operate as well, including the CIA, FBI and now Homeland Security (a.k.a. American Gestapo… trust me on this “prediction”) You will likewise see this same bias within the “scientific” and “academic” communities. Just look at the contentions around Global Warming/Climate Change and how big business has deliberately tainted and diluted the facts shared by researchers NOT dependent on “industry” based income/sponsorship, etc. (I’m not saying that some of this research isn’t biased; there are too many profiteers jumping on this bandwagon to not be so).

Ok, here's where the fallacies start. The proposition is that people who attempt to expose this government corruption are dispatched with or otherwise nullified. However, when presented with some examples of some very high profile people with large followings who are doing just that and apparently suffering no harm, rather than consider this to be evidence AGAINST the proposition, the OP invokes Special Pleading. 1) they haven't done enough damage yet - this effectively renders the proposition unfalsifiable - any case where measures are not taken can be explained away by this. 2) they are dupes who have been fed false information and serve some secret government use. Again this renders the original proposition unfalsifiable, and is also an argument from ignorance.

This is just a rephrasing of the previously stated views and thus, the answer is more or less, the same. While there are instances of “highly placed”/politically potent individuals don’t seem to suffer the negatives noted previously, you will find that they do loose influence and depending on whose toes they step on, could lose more at a quicker rate. They are not however, untouchable and unless they know how to play “the game” within the social-political arena, they will come to know a great deal of censure. Frequently this proves to be a slow-boat when it comes to persons of “high” standing, allowing them the opportunity to back-peddle. Again, we can see this in various situations IF we choose to look into such things.

Same thing with these examples. Rather than use the Jones and icke cases to consider it less likely that these three folks were assassinated by the "establishment", the OP is confirmed and rather than ask "does this make it less likely that JH, MLK and BJ were assassinated by the establishment, the question is simply asked why those three were picked for assassination and not Jone and Icke.

While I agree with the idea of not leaning too heavily on the Icke theories I do have to point out that the U.S. Government isn’t too abashed at removing problems. We have (unofficially) done this many times at home and abroad even though the official story is that we don’t do such things. If we didn’t, we’d really not need our own professional hit-men on payroll.

It is well known that Hoover had many personal agenda when it came to everyone from the Kennedy family and Martin Luther King to persecuting his own i.e. transvestites/homosexuals, etc. He kept more files and infringed on more rights of American citizens than any previous director but, he set a standard for such infringements that literally deprives all Americans of genuine privacy in today’s world. The expansion of these antics coming to us via the Patriot Act and invention of the Department of Homeland Security (which was attempted before {see:https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol49no1/html_files/bureaucratic_wragling_2.html}… a strong-arm asset for the ultra-conservatives such as we caught a glimpse of during the Bush, Jr. reign of terror & debacle.

Churchmen would tell you that the best trick the devil every played on man was convincing us that he doesn’t exist. This is exactly how any covert/secret society/conspiracy element would operate that’s just plain logic and what magic fans would refer to as “misdirection”… a very common tool used at the military/intelligence level by ALL governments via misinformation programs, double-agents, etc. When the façade is properly set, it would be difficult to prove it a house of cards.
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby Arouet » 09 Aug 2010, 00:21

Craig,

The points I was making was more about the argument structure than of the veracity of the proposition. I was focusing on the the logical fallacies in the post.
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby Arouet » 09 Aug 2010, 11:02

Craig Browning wrote:Ok, I have to comment on this in that there IS a plethora of evidence that supports every one of these scenarios, most especially item #3 in which one is painted to be a nut-job and what you offer is “quack-science” This is one of the JREF & CSICOP organization’s favorite dodges


I will say a quick word on this however. While I do think there are times where resorting to belittlement or mockery may be necessary to make a point, I agree that it's way overused and rudeness should not be the primary intent (however I see plenty of proponents using the same tactics, so I think the blame can be spread around.) That's another topic though.

For the belittling that you refer to above to be an example of what is proposed in the OP, then those folks at JREF and CSI must be doing it because they know the proponents are actually right, and are doing it to try and reduce their credibility to others. I don't think there is any evidence of that (if you have any, I'd be interested to see it).
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Re: A Top Secret America - hidden from public view

Postby Craig Browning » 09 Aug 2010, 21:18

Scepcop wrote:So true Ninjapuppy, from the time that we are born, we are always controlled by someone or a group of people, whether it's parents, schools, government, media, etc. It's always control, control. Yet we are told the opposite, that we are a free country and live in "the land of the free". It's double think and mind control. At the core, you are told one thing and done another. At the core, actions and words don't match. I hate that. It makes me sick. Lies, lies, lies.


While a truth exists in this statement, it's a misnomer; the U.S. IS a "Free" nation when you compare it to what things are like in other countries... most countries. Just south of our boarder you have oppressed people that are run shod over by one of the more corrupt governments on the planet as well as the various drug lords who pull this and that string... and I'm not just singling out Mexico, you can find it throughout Central and much of South America but it is likewise rampant throughout Africa and numerous other "3rd World" nations. Even in the UK there are far more rigid rules in certain instances, than you find here, so let's not paint the U.S. in such a dim light; even with all her faults she remains the most coveted and free nation on the planet and in history.

Yes, we are "programmed" from day one if not before (research suggesting that the fetus gets imprinted while in the womb). As I mentioned to a young born again butt head trying to save my soul, if you are born in the U.S. (western industrial nations) and raised in a Judeu-Christian environment will have a tremendous level of perspective and influence based on that environment. Those raised in a nation where Hinduism or whatever else, will know similar effects -- Hindu by Osmosis or, as we have seen in recent years, theocratic imposition. This is one reason why we hear so much similarity in "near death" scenarios but people raised Muslim see Allah or one of their prophets while Christians see Jesus, etc. It's what one is conditioned to. BUT (and this is important) there are those born into each culture who don't seem to fully accept this programming for whatever reason, frequently it's dismay; finding the "holes" in "the system" along side the hypocrisy. The result is our exaggerating how things are, such as you've done here. Like I said, there IS A TRUTH to what you've said, but it's an incomplete perspective.

Are we being bombarded by various modes of "programming" and "conditioning"?

Most certainly!

Those of us that are aware of this and able to retain a degree of perspective when it comes to such things, have hope as well as a heightened potential when it comes to NOT being a victim of said things. But it's up to us to make that decision and to do so wisely, not immersing ourselves too deeply in the more radical views that run to the contrary for this too can be a variant to the broader sense of programming and sadly, it can be far more damaging when it comes to personal credibility.
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