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9/11 debate on C2C I consulted on for Richard Gage

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby ProfWag » 27 Jun 2010, 20:06

really? wrote:
ProfWag wrote:But why would you need to worry about content if your theories are solid?


Scepcop wrote:What don't you get? The theories or hypothesis rather ARE the content. It should be the focus. Why do you ask dumb questions just to be anal and difficult? It's like you guys have no common sense.


Scepcop wrote:Well yeah. I talked to him on the phone for an hour and gave him some suggestions and arguments to use. He seems to be more worried about the format of the debate than the content though, whereas I care more about the content.


You said; [ above ↑] you were worried about the content and PW was asking you what specifically about the content is causing your concern. He because your statement above is vague.

Thanks really?. Yes, I would like to know what part of the content is causing you concern. Again, if Mr. Gage has solid evidence in his debate, then content shouldn't be an issue.
To help you out a bit, remember this. In a debate, if one side has facts and the other side has theories, assuming there is an unbiased arbitrator, the side with the facts will win. If Mr. Gage has facts, then he will win. If he's just pissed off at the government and wants to spread propoganda, then he will lose. Pretty simple really. So if you're going into this debate to maturely discuss the events of 9/11, then the content of your side of the debate should not be questioned. Perhaps Mr. Gage should be concerned with format rather than content.
Now, was your comment asking why I ask dumb questions really necessary?
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby really? » 27 Jun 2010, 22:34

One example of how this debate may proceed I refer you to this topic started by Jammonious

Posters and Lurkers here know me as a NO PLANER and I know that designation puts me at 6s&7s with most who post here, where it is thought that >80% of you self-identify as 9/11 debunkers and very few of you self-identify as 9/11 truthers and an even smaller percentage self-identify as NO PLANERS even if you self-identify as a truther.

It is claimed there are 43 known video clips of the explosion at Tower 2 or WTC2 or the South Tower.

There is a convenient youtuber that contains these 43 known versions available at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc2tfVuaSrg

Looked at as a whole, the compilation that runs for <10min. provides a variety of looks, angles, and degrees of quality concerning what happened to the South Tower.


IMHO, one can find more support for the NO PLANE claim when one considers ALL 43 as a group, with some being more consistent with the no plane claim than others. For instance, in a majority of them, it is very apparent that the explosion occurs in the "wrong" place. Basically, there is no explosion upon impact and when an explosion is seen, it is on the opposite sides of the buildings from impact, showing an internal rather than external source of explosion. Thus, the event was pyrotechnic in nature, as a NO PLANER sees it. Note that phrase: as a no planer sees it.


http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=175654
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby leo100 » 01 Jul 2010, 08:13

I just want to say that i don't believe in any conspiracy theories whatsoever. So you skeptics can't classify me along with Winston, David Icke and others who thinks there is life after death death but also believe in some conspiracy theory. I haven't seen any evidence for any conspiracy theories.
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby ProfWag » 01 Jul 2010, 21:03

leo100 wrote:I just want to say that i don't believe in any conspiracy theories whatsoever. So you skeptics can't classify me along with Winston, David Icke and others who thinks there is life after death death but also believe in some conspiracy theory. I haven't seen any evidence for any conspiracy theories.

Thanks for the clarification Leo.
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby Scepcop » 02 Jul 2010, 20:55

leo100 wrote:I just want to say that i don't believe in any conspiracy theories whatsoever. So you skeptics can't classify me along with Winston, David Icke and others who thinks there is life after death death but also believe in some conspiracy theory. I haven't seen any evidence for any conspiracy theories.


Are you saying that no conspiracies exist at all in the world? lol

Only Americans think that for some reason, cause they've been programmed that anything they are told is the truth, and the rest are conspiracy theories.

Yet if you look at history, it's full of conspiracies. A conspiracy murdered Julius Caesar, for example. And also Abraham Lincoln. History is full of them. So ask yourself, why do you reject any possibility of conspiracies?

You say you see no evidence of conspiracies. How much time have you spent researching them? Zero? If so, then how can you see evidence if you don't look for it? Isn't that illogical?

"World events do not occur by accident. They are made to happen, whether it is to do with national issues or commerce; and most of them are staged and managed by those who hold the purse strings."
— Denis Healey

Michael Tsarion explains this propaganda against conspiracies here in this 70 part lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyePZgL5zOo
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby ProfWag » 02 Jul 2010, 21:24

Scepcop wrote:
leo100 wrote:I just want to say that i don't believe in any conspiracy theories whatsoever. So you skeptics can't classify me along with Winston, David Icke and others who thinks there is life after death death but also believe in some conspiracy theory. I haven't seen any evidence for any conspiracy theories.


Are you saying that no conspiracies exist at all in the world? lol

Only Americans think that for some reason, cause they've been programmed that anything they are told is the truth, and the rest are conspiracy theories.

Yet if you look at history, it's full of conspiracies. A conspiracy murdered Julius Caesar, for example. And also Abraham Lincoln. History is full of them. So ask yourself, why do you reject any possibility of conspiracies?

You say you see no evidence of conspiracies. How much time have you spent researching them? Zero? If so, then how can you see evidence if you don't look for it? Isn't that illogical?

"World events do not occur by accident. They are made to happen, whether it is to do with national issues or commerce; and most of them are staged and managed by those who hold the purse strings."
— Denis Healey

Michael Tsarion explains this propaganda against conspiracies here in this 70 part lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyePZgL5zOo

I agree with you Scopcop, history has been full of conspiracies. I believe, however, that not everything is a conspiracy.
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby Scepcop » 02 Jul 2010, 21:45

leo100 wrote:I just want to say that i don't believe in any conspiracy theories whatsoever. So you skeptics can't classify me along with Winston, David Icke and others who thinks there is life after death death but also believe in some conspiracy theory. I haven't seen any evidence for any conspiracy theories.


This is not about theories or conspiracy theories. This is about EVIDENCE and FACTS, or conspiracy evidence/facts rather. And there is a LOT of EVIDENCE that contradicts the official version of 9/11, which was arrived at immediately after 9/11 as if it were prescripted in advance.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby Scepcop » 02 Jul 2010, 21:47

ProfWag wrote:
Scepcop wrote:
leo100 wrote:I just want to say that i don't believe in any conspiracy theories whatsoever. So you skeptics can't classify me along with Winston, David Icke and others who thinks there is life after death death but also believe in some conspiracy theory. I haven't seen any evidence for any conspiracy theories.


Are you saying that no conspiracies exist at all in the world? lol

Only Americans think that for some reason, cause they've been programmed that anything they are told is the truth, and the rest are conspiracy theories.

Yet if you look at history, it's full of conspiracies. A conspiracy murdered Julius Caesar, for example. And also Abraham Lincoln. History is full of them. So ask yourself, why do you reject any possibility of conspiracies?

You say you see no evidence of conspiracies. How much time have you spent researching them? Zero? If so, then how can you see evidence if you don't look for it? Isn't that illogical?

"World events do not occur by accident. They are made to happen, whether it is to do with national issues or commerce; and most of them are staged and managed by those who hold the purse strings."
— Denis Healey

Michael Tsarion explains this propaganda against conspiracies here in this 70 part lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyePZgL5zOo

I agree with you Scopcop, history has been full of conspiracies. I believe, however, that not everything is a conspiracy.


Ok so you admit that conspiracies exist. So how do you know then, when something is a conspiracy and when it isn't? Do you go by what CNN and Newsweek tell you?

Can you name any conspiracy that the media or government won't admit to? Just one?

If the government covers up a lot of stuff, how do you know whether 9/11 or UFO's aren't among the secrets? How do you know? You're just sheep to them too right?
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby ProfWag » 02 Jul 2010, 22:07

Scepcop wrote:Ok so you admit that conspiracies exist. So how do you know then, when something is a conspiracy and when it isn't? Do you go by what CNN and Newsweek tell you?

Can you name any conspiracy that the media or government won't admit to? Just one?

If the government covers up a lot of stuff, how do you know whether 9/11 or UFO's aren't among the secrets? How do you know? You're just sheep to them too right?

Of course I admit that conspiracies exist. One would be blind to think that the public is "all-knowing."
Can I name a conspiracy that the government won't admit to? I'm suspect as to what our government knew about Al Quada prior to 9/11. I don't think we've been told the full story as to how much they knew about a potential plot to harm Americans. I feel pretty good about myself in believing that the government knew we were the target of an attack and, possibly, possibly (no evidence for this that I've seen) even that planes may be involved. Do I think our government knew when, where, or on what scale? No. The evidence doesn't point to that. Most of the conspiracy theories I have read, which include no planes, controlled demolition, not a civilian airliner into the Pentagon, etc., facts have to be changed in order for the theory to work. 9/11 is simply way too large for a massive cover-up of those ideas. Al Quada flew planes into our buildings. Simple as that. I freely admit, however, that the government may have known an attack was pending.
I don't know UFOs are or are not among the secrets. From my knowledge in 24 years in the Air Force, however, I don't believe that could be kept secret for more than a week and half.
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby Scepcop » 02 Jul 2010, 22:39

Apparently, the paranormal blogger Michael Prescott wrote a critical post about my involvement with the 9/11 Truth debate, and declares that he is rooting for the JREF side on this one:

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... -jref.html

See the ton of comments in his blog post. My response to Michael that I posted in his blog:

To Michael Prescott:

How much time have you spent researching 9/11? No one can claim that the full truth is known 100 percent. There are hundreds of unanswered questions and discrepancies and scientific impossibilities with the official story. Even you can see that surely?

Michael, just because the JREFers SAY that something is debunked does NOT prove that something is debunked. You as a critical thinker should know that.

FYI, the official fire collapse theory of the WTC has NEVER EVER been proven. Office fires burn at around 1000F while steel melts or softens at 2700F. JREF has NEVER been able to debunk that, neither has Popular Mechanics. They assume many things without proof.

Simple question for you Michael: Have you ever cooked on a gas range with steel pots and pans? If so, did the flame from the gas stove melt your steel pots and pans? If not, why do you buy the official story that the fires weakened the steel and pulverized it to dust at free fall speed? Use your head please.

And the collapse of Building 7, which was NOT even hit by an airplane, yet fell at 6 seconds, near free fall speed, has NEVER EVER been explained. All cop out attempts have failed.

David Ray Griffin has already debunked Popular Mechanics in his book "Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and the defenders of the official conspiracy theory". Please read that before concluding the Popular Mechanics is the final authority.

You should do your research Michael before jumping to conclusions. Just because you and JREF says that the controlled demolition hypothesis has been debunked does not mean that they have been debunked. Surely you must have higher standards than that?

It's strange that you predict that JREF will win. They've lost almost every debate in the past. In the last debate between Richard Gage and Ron Craig, Gage definitely won. The audience agreed overwhelmingly. You can listen to that debate on YouTube.

Anyway, for an intelligent writer, you seem to dismiss the whole 9/11 thing offhand without doing some serious research. Many have an emotional block to this issue for some reason. Do you see that you are being emotional, not rational or objective? Look at the evidence on both sides first, before jumping to conclusions.

Ask yourself this Michael: Why does nearly everyone in the US, Russia and Europe who has investigated or researched this, conclude that the official story was a farce or cover up? There must be valid reasons right?

I invite you to watch these compelling films. I promise that if you watch them with even a 20 percent UNBIASED objective mindset, you will agree that "something stinks to high heaven".

9/11 Blueprint for Truth:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6903609314

Zero An Investigation into 9/11:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8603788739

9/11 Revisited: Were explosives used?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1142118919

Please examine the evidence with an objective mind, rather than a closed minded dismissal.

We are not making claims or accusations. Just asking that the ignored evidence be exposed so that the truth can be known. That's all. If you are a genuine truth seeker, you would want that too.

A true skeptic asks questions and does not jump to conclusions or accept authority as truth.

Thanks,
Winston

Dear MP:

A few more things:

- This is not about theories or conspiracy theories. This is about EVIDENCE and FACTS, or conspiracy evidence/facts rather. And there is a LOT of EVIDENCE that contradicts the official version of 9/11, which was arrived at immediately after 9/11 as if it were prescripted in advance.

- Most people who believe in the paranormal also believe that SOME conspiracies exist. The reason they go hand in hand is because people who think outside the box and look at possibilities are open to both. Conspiracies have been with us throughout history. Julius Caesar was assassinated by a conspiracy even. So why do so many Americans like you believe that they don't exist?

- If you think only nutters doubt the official version of 9/11, think again. Here are lists of highly credible and professional experts who challenge and disbelieve the official 9/11 myth:

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
http://www2.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php

Michael, see these two clips and answer the following questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-DtO00Jg6s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYLtBQexsiQ&NR=1

1. Ok so why did the FBI ignore numerous warnings from its own agents and leads just before 9/11 that terrorist attacks were imminent?

2. Why did the hijackers get visas into the US so easily? And why was the US consulate agent told not to talk about the visas given to the hijackers or report it?

3. And why was Bin Laden's family safely flown out of the US when OBL was public enemy number one?

This YouTuber put it eloquently:

"funny thing,Bush demands that all leaders of Al-Qaeda be handed over to the US
yet they have Bin Laden's family in the US,flown off after 9/11
the only way they could receive any info on Osama was by his family,yet they were flown out of the country,away from Surveillance.
instead of being under protected custody and Surveillance by the government,they are flown to safety overseas
wow,either the government is really stupid or they are hiding something"

How come the mainstream media is too chicken to cover all this?

Also check out this recent bombshell update:

Bombshell: Silverstein Wanted To Demolish Building 7 On 9/11
http://www.infowars.com/bombshell-silve ... -7-on-911/

To Aftrbrnr:

It is NOT true that SCEPCOP puts everything paranormal under one banner. On the home page of SCEPCOP, it says otherwise:

"Just to state for the record though, opposing pseudoskepticism does NOT mean that SCEPCOP endorses every crackpot claim, theory and fantasy out there. Not at all. We believe in applying equal skepticism to both sides, as well as the objective weighing of evidence, for as you might expect, some claims and phenomenon have a lot of solid evidence to back it up, while others have little or none."

Next time read before you jump to conclusions.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby ProfWag » 02 Jul 2010, 22:52

In a strange way, I feel sorry for you Winston. Your last paragraph, the one that says you believe in applying equal skepticism to both sides, doesn't appear to be true. And believe me, I've read almost every post in this website. You (as in yourself, not the website) have never stated that it's possible AA flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon or that the 2 planes crashed into the WTC and that the force of the top 10 floors falling may have brought down the buildings. There is a lot of information that totally supports the "official story" about the Towers and WTC 7 falling, but you won't post that. Until you do so that people can see both sides, you are a pseudo-truther.
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby really? » 03 Jul 2010, 02:20

[quote="Scepcop"][/quote]

My memory isn't what it used to be, but if it serves well enough I remember watching on live tv at least one passenger jet fly into one of the World Trade Center towers.

Winston you never completed your thought on the other thread were I asked why 9/11 was a conspiracy by the USA government instead of the believeable conspiracy by Islamic terrorists. Forget the facts for a minute you seem to gravitate towards the Truther's side of the argument, why ?
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby really? » 03 Jul 2010, 02:50

Comments from readers over at Michael Prescott's blog
This is true
A sane intelligent commentator above points out that people who tend to believe in psi tend to go toward the extreme end of irrationality and believe in anything no matter how outrageous, there is no skepticism there whatsoever, no discretion, they cannot sort the wheat from the chaff whatsover. A lot of new-age types are like this. It doesn't make 9-11 woowoo any less sinister for all that, and delusional.





This is scary

"Finally, I offer this caution for readers: don’t smugly assume this conspiracy is confined to the lunatic fringe. After years of polishing and refinement, 9/11 'Truth' efforts have persuaded many citizens, including some of my relatives and close friends, to consider the attacks of 9/11 an 'inside job.'"

So it looks like I'm wrong to say that the people who believe in this stuff, or at least give it a respectful hearing, are necessarily crazy. Apparently "Trutherism" has gone mainstream, at least to a certain extent, and some otherwise well-adjusted people, like ZC, are willing to consider it as a viable possibility.

I find this very depressing.


So do I.
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby Edx » 03 Jul 2010, 03:37

WinstonWu writes:
Office fires burn at around 1000F while steel melts or softens at 2700F.


Wrong. That temperate is when steel melts, but steel softens at as low as 425oC and loses about half of its strength at around 650oC. Office fires are well know to easily get as high as 1000oC and are considered some of the most dangerous since they contain such a lot of combustible materials.

Simple question for you Michael: Have you ever cooked on a gas range with steel pots and pans? If so, did the flame from the gas stove melt your steel pots and pans? If not, why do you buy the official story that the fires weakened the steel and pulverized it to dust at free fall speed? Use your head please.


If steel is as indestructible to fire as you make out, why do they bother fire protecting steel at all do you think?


And the collapse of Building 7, which was NOT even hit by an airplane,


But was hit by falling skyscraper.

yet fell at 6 seconds,


Wrong,

near free fall speed,


Wrong.


Ask yourself this Michael: Why does nearly everyone in the US, Russia and Europe who has investigated or researched this, conclude that the official story was a farce or cover up? There must be valid reasons right?


Incorrect assumption that everyone that "researches" it concludes inside job. Why is it the truth movement have zero peer reviewed papers in legitimate journals? Truthers have zero mainstream support. Why is that if its all so obvious?

- If you think only nutters doubt the official version of 9/11, think again. Here are lists of highly credible and professional experts who challenge and disbelieve the official 9/11 myth:

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com


This website also supports no planers and puts people who died in the collapses as people who question 911, its disgusting.


Michael, see these two clips and answer the following questions:


You should watch this:

Richard Gage 9/11 - Explosive Contradictions


Conclusion:
Richard Gage does not understand, thermite,
Richard Gage does not understand explosives,
Richard Gage does not understand sound.

1. Ok so why did the FBI ignore numerous warnings from its own agents and leads just before 9/11 that terrorist attacks were imminent?


They didn't. The warnings were unspecific.

3. And why was Bin Laden's family safely flown out of the US when OBL was public enemy number one?


Because OBL's family are well known to the authorties and disowned him years ago.

This YouTuber put it eloquently:

"funny thing,Bush demands that all leaders of Al-Qaeda be handed over to the US
yet they have Bin Laden's family in the US,flown off after 9/11
the only way they could receive any info on Osama was by his family,yet they were flown out of the country,away from Surveillance.
instead of being under protected custody and Surveillance by the government,they are flown to safety overseas
wow,either the government is really stupid or they are hiding something"


If they didnt have any evidence that OBL family knew where he was, what can they do about it?

Also check out this recent bombshell update:

Bombshell: Silverstein Wanted To Demolish Building 7 On 9/11
http://www.infowars.com/bombshell-silve ... -7-on-911/


Evidence in this article? Oh yes, absolutely none. But its not surprising its InfoWars. They should consider changing their names to AlwaysWrong.com
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Re: Upcoming 9/11 debate on Coast to Coast I'm consulting on

Postby ProfWag » 03 Jul 2010, 03:51

[quote="Edx"]
Uhhhhhhhhh welcome Edx!!!
Last edited by ProfWag on 03 Jul 2010, 04:00, edited 1 time in total.
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